Title: More Clarifications Regarding "Where is Allah?" Question/Comments: Thank you for your reply. I think what the scholars mean when they say "Allah is above seven heavens" is that they mean that Allah is distinct from the creations. The creation of Allah is assumed to include earth and the seven heavens. Hence the Creator should be distinct from the creation i.e., he cannot live inside the creation which will make him dependant. I think this is the reason why the scholars say that Allah is above seven heavens. Do you agree with this reasoning?. Could you please comment on the following points that the articles raised? Imaam Ibn Khuzaymah, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: 'Whoever does not believe that Allaah is above the heavens, separate from His creatures has to be asked to repent from that. If he repents he would be forgiven; otherwise, he should be killed and should be thrown in garbage so as not to cause pain to Muslims or non-Muslims.' However, as a principle some sayings though they are disbelief, but those who uttered them are not considered as a real disbelievers unless the matter has been explained to them clearly and they deny the truth. You wrote that the Quranic verses referring to Allah's attributes were interpreted by early Muslims in metaphorical sense. But I read that majority of early scholars rebuked at those who interpreted Allah's attributes metaphorically. Please see the following texts. Sheik al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah is not the only one who rejected the creed of al-Ash'irah and pointed out their mistakes. To verify the authenticity of our statement one should read the books of good ancestors. For example, one may refer to the following books: - "Usool al-I'etiqad" (the principles of creed) written by al-Lalkai , - "al-Hujjah" (the substantiation) written by al-Asfahani , - "al-'Uluw" (the highness) written by Imam al-Zahabi . There are other scholars who compiled books before the above scholars such as Abdullah bin Ahmad bin Hanbal in his book "al-Sunnah", Ibn Khuzaimah in his book "al-Tawheed" and Ibn Manda in the book "al-Tawheed". There are many other reliable Islamic references where one can find the same material. http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Istisharat/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=3098&Option=FatwaId Could you please elucidate further on this?. Thank You. Answer: You wrote: "Thank you for your reply. I think what the scholars mean when they say "Allah is above seven heavens" is that they mean that Allah is distinct from the creations. The creation of Allah is assumed to include earth and the seven heavens. Hence the Creator should be distinct from the creation i.e., he cannot live inside the creation which will make him dependant. I think this is the reason why the scholars say that Allah is above seven heavens. Do you agree with this reasoning?" If, based on the Qur'an and the Ahadith, they mean that He is literally above the seven heavens then I cannot agree. This is not what I understand from the Qur'an and the Ahadith as I tried to explain in my previous answer. On the contrary, I believe that usages such as the one in the Qur'an where Allah (swt) is described as "He Who is in the heaven" are merely to communicate the grandeur and excellence of Allah (swt) and that He is beyond any type of comparison with His creations. I don't believe that we are given God's location and therefore it would be just as erroneous to claim that God is located within His creation as it is to claim that He is above it. The Divine message didn't touch upon such things and it didn't have to as it is of no concern to our success in the hereafter. You asked me to comment on the following: "Imaam Ibn Khuzaymah, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: 'Whoever does not believe that Allaah is above the heavens, separate from His creatures has to be asked to repent from that. If he repents he would be forgiven; otherwise, he should be killed and should be thrown in garbage so as not to cause pain to Muslims or non-Muslims.'" From the book At-Tawheed which he is said to have authored it seems clear that he was of the view that Allah (swt) is literally above the heaven. You pasted the following extract from your referred link: To verify the authenticity of our statement one should read the books of good ancestors. For example, one may refer to the following books: - "Usool al-I'etiqad" (the principles of creed) written by al-Lalkai , - "al-Hujjah" (the substantiation) written by al-Asfahani , - "al-'Uluw" (the highness) written by Imam al-Zahabi . There are other scholars who compiled books before the above scholars such as Abdullah bin Ahmad bin Hanbal in his book "al-Sunnah", Ibn Khuzaimah in his book "al-Tawheed" and Ibn Manda in the book "al-Tawheed". There are many other reliable Islamic references where one can find the same material." There are indeed Scholars who held this view but as I said, it gained fame mainly after Imam Ibn Taymiyyah propagated it. Before this time, the Scholars viewed them as Mutashabihat and therefore either completely refused to comment on them or they interpreted them symbolically. The writer refers to these as "reliable Islamic references" and I will not be able to go through all of them. However, regarding Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, I do not agree that he supported such a view. Actually, I think that the book known as "Kitab Al-Sunnah" lacks authenticity and has been forged and falsely ascribed to him. The book was supposed to have been written by Ahmad's son Abdullah but there are two unknown narrators in the chain that ascribes this work to him. These are Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Simsar and Muhammad ibn Ibrahim al-Harawi. There appears to be no real sign of these two characters anywhere else. Furthermore, when the contents of the book are analyzed, we find that some of the things that are ascribed to the great scholar are totally unbefitting and contradict what we know of him from more reliable works. Have a look at some of the narrations it contains: ...when He Most Blessed and Exalted sits on the Kursi, a squeak is heard like the squeak of a new leather saddle (page 301 of the first volume of the book published in two volumes in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, by Ibn al-Qayyim Publishing House, in 1986.) Allah wrote the Torah for Moses with His hand while leaning back on a rock, on tablets of pearl, and the screech of the quill could be heard. There was no veil between Him and him, (on page 294 of the same volume) The angels were created from the light of His two elbows and chest, (on page 510 of the second volume) Thus, in my view, even a cursory look at the work and what it contains would cause one to conclude that it is unreliable. Contrary to all this, we find more reliable works, which show quite clearly that he seemed to reject anthropomorphic concepts of God outright. For instance, in "al Barahin al-sati'a", on page 164, Imam Ahmad was narrated to have said: The names of things are taken from the Shari'a and the Arabic language. The language's possessors have used this word [body] for something that has height, breadth, thickness, construction, form and composition, while Allah Most High is beyond all of that, and may not be termed a "body" because of being beyond any meaning of embodiedness. This has not been conveyed by the Shari'a, and so is rebutted In "Daf' Shubah al-tasbih", on page 28, he is narrated to have said the following about Allah (swt): He is 'established' upon the Throne however He wills and as He wills, without any limit or any description that be made by any describer. Imam Bayhaqi narrates in his Manaqib al Imam Ahmad (the memorable actions of Imam Ahmad) that: 'Amr Ibn Al Sammak, from Hanbal, the son of the brother of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal's father; that Ahmad Ibn Hanbal figuratively interpreted the word of Allah Most High, "And your Lord shall come..." (Surah 89:22) as meaning "His recompense shall come." Note also that Imam Abd' al Rahman ibn al Jawzi (died 597 AH), who is arguably the greatest of all Hanbali scholars and who recorded Imam Ahmad's narratives, actually wrote a book to refute these concepts and to clear his Imam (i.e. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal) from any associations with it. This book is called "Rebuttal of the insinuations of anthropomorphism at the hands of transcendence". So, he (i.e. Imam Ahmad) who is probably the greatest of all scholars among those mentioned in your referred extract by the writer, clearly does not support such a concept. Lastly, I insist that you read my last answer on this topic where I explained why I think such an interpretation as expressed in the link that you provided is erroneous and simply doesn't hold water. I hope all this will be of help, Allah (swt) knows best, Best wishes, Hischam Khan December 26, 2004